WASHINGTON — The Supreme Court is meeting in private Friday with a key issue on its agenda — President Donald Trump’s birthright citizenship order declaring that children born to parents who are in the United States illegally or temporarily are not American citizens.
The justices could say as soon as Monday whether they will hear Trump’s appeal of lower court rulings that have uniformly struck down the citizenship restrictions. They have not taken effect anywhere in the United States.
If the court steps in now, the case would be argued in the spring, with a definitive ruling expected by early summer.
The birthright citizenship order, which Trump signed on the first day of his second term in the White House, is part of his administration’s broad immigration crackdown. Other actions include immigration enforcement surges in several cities and the first peacetime invocation of the 18th century Alien Enemies Act.
The administration is facing multiple court challenges, and the high court has sent mixed signals in emergency orders it has issued. The justices effectively stopped the use of the Alien Enemies Act to rapidly deport alleged Venezuelan gang members without court hearings, while they allowed the resumption of sweeping immigration stops in the Los Angeles area after a lower court blocked the practice of stopping people solely based on their race, language, job or location.
The justices also are weighing the administration’s emergency appeal to be allowed to deploy National Guard troops in the Chicago area for immigration enforcement actions. A lower court has indefinitely prevented the deployment.
Birthright citizenship is the first Trump immigration-related policy to reach the court for a final ruling. Trump’s order would upend more than 125 years of understanding that the Constitution’s 14th Amendment confers citizenship on everyone born on American soil, with narrow exceptions for the children of foreign diplomats and those born to a foreign occupying force.
In a series of decisions, lower courts have struck down the executive order as unconstitutional, or likely so, even after a Supreme Court ruling in late June that limited judges’ use of nationwide injunctions.
While the Supreme Court curbed the use of nationwide injunctions, it did not rule out other court orders that could have nationwide effects, including in class-action lawsuits and those brought by states. The justices did not decide at that time whether the underlying citizenship order is constitutional.
But every lower court that has looked at the issue has concluded that Trump’s order violates or most likely violates the 14th Amendment, which was intended to ensure that Black people, including former slaves, had citizenship.
The U.S. Court of Appeals for the 9th Circuit in San Francisco ruled in July that a group of states that sued over the order needed a nationwide injunction to prevent the problems that would be caused by birthright citizenship being in effect in some states and not others.
Also in July, a federal judge in New Hampshire blocked the citizenship order in a class-action lawsuit including all children who would be affected.
The American Civil Liberties Union, leading the legal team in the New Hampshire case, urged the court to reject the appeal because the administration’s “arguments are so flimsy,” ACLU lawyer Cody Wofsy said. ”But if the court decides to hear the case, we’re more than ready to take Trump on and win.”
Birthright citizenship automatically makes anyone born in the United States an American citizen, including children born to mothers who are in the country illegally, under long-standing rules. The right was enshrined soon after the Civil War in the first sentence of the 14th Amendment.
The administration has asserted that children of noncitizens are not “subject to the jurisdiction” of the United States and therefore not entitled to citizenship.
“The lower court’s decisions invalidated a policy of prime importance to the president and his administration in a manner that undermines our border security,” Solicitor General D. John Sauer wrote in urging the high court’s review. “Those decisions confer, without lawful justification, the privilege of American citizenship on hundreds of thousands of unqualified people.”
When Lauren Vaughn, a kindergarten assistant in South Carolina, saw reports that right-wing influencer Charlie Kirk had been shot at an event in Utah, she opened Facebook and typed out a quote from Kirk himself.
Gun deaths, Kirk said in 2023, were unfortunate but “worth it” if they preserved “the Second Amendment to protect our other God-given Rights.” Following the quote, Vaughn added: “Thoughts and prayers.”
Vaughn, a 37-year-old Christian who has taken missionary trips to Guatemala, said her call for prayer was sincere. She said she hoped reading Kirk’s words in the context of the shooting might prompt her friends to rethink their opposition to gun control.
“Maybe now they’ll listen,” she recalled thinking.
A few days later, Vaughn lost her job. She was one of more than 600 Americans fired, suspended, placed under investigation or disciplined by employers for comments about Kirk’s September 10 assassination, according to a Reuters review of court records, public statements, local media reports and interviews with two dozen people who were fired or otherwise disciplined.
Some were dismissed after celebrating or mocking Kirk’s death. At least 15 people were punished for allegedly invoking “karma” or “divine justice,” and at least nine others were disciplined for variations on “Good riddance.” Other offending posts appeared to exult in the killing or express hope that other Republican figures would be next. “One down, plenty to go,” one said.
Others, like Vaughn, say they simply criticized Kirk’s politics.
In the pro-Kirk camp, at least one academic was put on administrative leave after threatening to “hunt down” those celebrating the assassination.
This account is the most comprehensive to date of the backlash against Kirk’s critics, tracing how senior officials in President Donald Trump’s administration, local Republican lawmakers and allied influencers mobilized to enforce the Trump movement’s views. The story maps the pro-Trump machinery of retaliation now reshaping American political life, detailing its scale and tactics, ranging from shaming on social media to public pressure on employers and threats to defund institutions. Earlier reports by Reuters have documented how Trump has purged the federal government of employees deemed opponents of his agenda and cracked down on law firms defending people in the administration’s crosshairs.
Americans sometimes lose their jobs after speaking out in heated political moments. Twenty-two academics were dismissed in 2020, the year George Floyd was murdered by a Minneapolis police officer, most for comments deemed insensitive, according to the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression, a free-speech advocacy group. In 2024, the first full year following the outbreak of the latest Israel-Gaza war, more than 160 people were fired in connection with their pro-Palestinian advocacy, according to Palestine Legal, an organization that protects the civil rights of American supporters of the Palestinian cause.
The backlash over comments about Kirk’s shooting stands apart because of its reach and its public backing from Trump, Vice President JD Vance and other top government officials. It represents a striking about-face for Republicans, who for years castigated the left for what they called “cancel culture” — the ostracism or punishment of those whose views were deemed unacceptable.
Supporters of the firings say that freedom of speech is not freedom from consequence. Standards of behavior should be high for people like doctors, lawyers, teachers or emergency workers who are in positions of public trust, they said.
In a statement, White House spokesperson Abigail Jackson said: “President Trump and the entire Administration will not hesitate to speak the truth – for years, radical leftists have slandered their political opponents as Nazis and Fascists, inspiring left-wing violence. It must end.” She added: “no one understands the dangers of political violence more than President Trump” after he survived two assassination attempts.
Turning Point USA, the youth movement Kirk founded in 2012, said in a statement that it supported the right to free speech, “including that of private employers to determine when a bright line has been crossed and an employee deserves to be terminated.” The organization, however, cautioned that while celebrating or gloating over Kirk’s death was “evil and disqualifying behavior, respectfully disagreeing with his ideas, statements, or values is every American’s right.”
Vaughn is challenging her dismissal in a federal lawsuit filed September 18, seeking reinstatement. As part of the case, she submitted a letter she received from the Spartanburg County School District superintendent that described her remarks as “inflammatory, unprofessional, and inappropriate.” Responding to the lawsuit, the district said Vaughn’ s post “appeared to endorse Mr. Kirk’s murder or indicate that it was ‘worth’ him losing his life to protect Americans’ constitutional rights.”
The punishments have often been driven by social media campaigns that circulate screenshots of the offending remarks, along with the names and phone numbers of employers, and appeals such as, “Internet, do your thing.” What typically follows are hundreds of angry or threatening messages, Reuters found. Several individuals who were targeted said in interviews they were inundated with phone calls. One recalled receiving a call every minute for an entire day. At least two said the harassment was so intense they plan to sell their homes.
Julie Strebe, a sheriff’s deputy in Salem, Missouri, lost her job after posting comments on Facebook about the shooting, including “Empathy is not owed to oppressors.” She later said she viewed Kirk as an oppressor because, in her words, he sought to marginalize vulnerable groups and used his platform to rally conservative white Christians behind “racist, sexist, hateful views.” She said her bosses were besieged with calls for her dismissal and that, at one point, a hand-drawn sign appeared across from her home reading, “Julie Strebe Supports the Assassination of Charles Kirk.”
Strebe said she installed five surveillance cameras at her home and now fuels her car only at night to avoid neighbors. Moving from Salem would mean leaving extended family, but she said the small city has grown too hostile to stay. “I just don’t feel like I could ever let my guard down,” she said in an interview. Strebe’s former employer, the Dent County Sheriff’s Office, declined to comment.
Many Republican officials have embraced the punitive campaign. Some have proposed extraordinary measures, including lifetime bans from social media for those deemed to be reveling in Kirk’s death. The U.S. State Department revoked visas for six foreigners who the agency said “celebrated the heinous assassination of Charlie Kirk.”
Speaking on a special episode of Kirk’s podcast on September 15, Vice President JD Vance urged his listeners to inflict consequences on those celebrating Kirk’s death.
“Call them out, and, hell, call their employer,” Vance said. Vance’s office pointed Reuters to comments made earlier this year in which the vice president said, “where I draw the line is encouraging violence against political opponents.”
Some academics compared the backlash to the “Red Scare,” the anti-Communist purge that peaked in the 1950s, when officials, labor leaders and Hollywood figures were accused of Communist ties. Thousands were investigated in a climate of fear that shaped U.S. politics and culture for a generation. There are “very disturbing parallels,” said Landon Storrs, a University of Iowa history professor.
Several prominent Republicans have voiced unease at the clampdown, especially after the Federal Communications Commission openly pressured broadcaster ABC to suspend talk show host Jimmy Kimmel following a monolog in which he suggested that Kirk’s assassin hailed from the political right. Police haven’t fully detailed the findings of their investigation into suspect Tyler Robinson and his motives. Robinson hasn’t entered a plea to the murder and other charges against him.
Republican Senator Ted Cruz warned on his podcast that letting government decide “what speech we like and what we don’t” sets a dangerous precedent. Silencing voices like Kimmel’s might feel good, he said, but “when it’s used to silence every conservative in America, we will regret it.” His spokesperson declined further comment.
Charlie Kirk, founder of Turning Point USA, speaks in 2022.
‘Massive purge of these evil psychos’
The campaign to punish Kirk’s critics began almost immediately.
About 30 minutes after Trump’s announcement that Kirk had died, right-wing influencers mobilized. Among the first was Chaya Raichik, operator of the widely followed Libs of TikTok account, which had posted on X, “THIS IS WAR,” before highlighting a Massachusetts teacher who had written: “Just a reminder, We’re NOT offering sympathy.”
By night’s end, Libs of TikTok had published or reposted the professional details of 37 individuals, often accompanied by commentary such as “absolutely vile,” “Your tax dollars pay her salary,” or “Would you want him teaching your kids?”
“It’s actually terrifying how many of them are teachers, doctors and military members,” Libs of TikTok wrote the next day. “We need a massive purge of these evil psychos who want to kiII all of us for simply having opposing political views.”
In the week after the shooting, Libs of TikTok shared the names and profiles of at least 134 people accused of celebrating violence or mocking Kirk’s memory, frequently tagging Trump administration officials including Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth and Attorney General Pam Bondi. At times, the influencer posted disciplinary actions taken against specific government employees.
“BREAKING: This marine was fired,” Libs of TikTok posted on September 12, a day after calling out a Marine Corps captain. The officer had responded to Kirk’s death by posting an emoji of clinking beer mugs, according to a screenshot the influencer shared with followers. Reuters could not verify the authenticity of the beer-mug post; the captain declined to comment. Libs of TikTok also reported similar disciplinary actions involving an Army Reserve officer and an Army colonel who had commented on the death on social media.
The Pentagon and the Justice Department issued statements condemning celebrations of Kirk’s death but did not address questions about their relationship with Libs of TikTok.
Right-wing influencer Scott Presler began posting screenshots of Kirk commentary, too.
“Take a screenshot of EVERY single person celebrating today,” he told his followers on September 10. “You bet your behind we will make them infamous.” Over the next week, Presler shared posts on X about 70 people who had commented on the killing, and wrote in one message: “Almost every person we’ve posted about — who celebrated Charlie Kirk’s assassination — has been fired.” Presler didn’t respond to requests for comment.
For many on the right, outraged by celebratory reactions from the left, the wave of firings became a form of catharsis.
“It’s good that they are shamed and humiliated and must live with the repercussions for the rest of their lives,” right-wing podcaster Matt Walsh told his audience as he discussed the firings. “It’s good if they wake up every day until they die wishing they had not said what they said.” Asked for comment, Walsh emailed back: “f**k off.”
On YouTube, video blogger and recovery coach JD Delay expressed glee as he read aloud names of those who had lost their jobs over their remarks.
“I’m having fun! This is so much fun!” he shouted, raising his hands in excitement. Delay told Reuters that he believes in “accountability and consequences” and that “if you publicly say abhorrent things and get fired from your job, I’m going to laugh at you.”
The punishment campaign sometimes veered off course. In at least five cases, people were wrongly blamed for comments made by others. In another case, a website that drew up a blacklist called “Expose Charlie’s Murderers” vanished after taking in tens of thousands of dollars in cryptocurrency donations. Attempts to identify and seek comment from the site’s creators were unsuccessful.
President Donald Trump takes the stage during a memorial service honoring conservative activist Charlie Kirk in Glendale, Arizona, on Sept. 21, 2025.
Several online influencers said they received hundreds — sometimes thousands — of tips from individuals seeking to get Kirk’s detractors fired. Reuters was unable to verify those figures. But at various points, Presler, Libs of TikTok and other right-wing personalities publicly urged tipsters to be patient as they worked through the volume of submissions.
“Can’t keep up with all of you,” Presler wrote on X on September 12. “Post your submissions below & I’ll go through them as I can.”
A day later, the post had drawn more than 2,700 replies.
The tally of more than 600 people punished for criticizing Kirk is likely an undercount. Many companies and government organizations haven’t publicly disclosed terminations or suspensions.
Those punished came from at least 45 states and represented a cross-section of society, from soldiers and pilots to doctors, nurses and police officers.
In Michigan, an Office Depot employee was fired after being filmed refusing to print a poster memorializing Kirk. In Ohio, a Starbucks barista lost her job after she was accused of writing an anti-Kirk message on a cup of mint tea.
Reuters couldn’t determine the identities of the Office Depot worker or the barista. Office Depot and Kroger — the grocery store chain that runs the Ohio Starbucks — condemned the anti-Kirk incidents and said the people involved were no longer employees.
Requests to 21 federal agencies — including Homeland Security, Veterans Affairs and the Defense Department — for the number of suspensions or dismissals tied to the Kirk assassination were either ignored or declined. When the Office of the Director of National Intelligence was contacted, its deputy chief of staff responded on social media, accusing Reuters of trying to generate sympathy “for the ghouls who celebrate his death.”
Educators among the main targets
Teachers, academics and university administrators were among those most frequently punished for criticizing Kirk. More than 350 education workers were fired, suspended or investigated in the days following the assassination, including 50 academics and senior university administrators, three high school principals, two cheerleading coaches and a theology instructor.
The prominence of educators in the backlash may stem from several factors. As leaders tasked with shaping young minds, teachers have long been cast by some conservatives as ideologues who aim to pull their students left. Their status as taxpayer-funded employees made any perceived partisan commentary especially combustible.
In interviews and public statements, at least six teachers cited another reason for speaking out: concern over the frequency of gun violence at schools nationwide — and anger at those, like Kirk, who have championed widespread access to firearms.
Vaughn, the South Carolina kindergarten assistant, said that was front of mind when she went to Facebook to quote Kirk’s 2023 remark dismissing some fatal shootings as the price to pay to protect gun rights. Like other teachers across the country, she said she regularly practiced active-shooter drills at her elementary school and saw fear on her five-year-olds’ faces as they learned how to hide from a gunman.
As she defended her post on the day of Kirk’s death, she told a Facebook friend that she felt “no satisfaction” at the assassination. “Just heartbreak for everyone and anyone affected by gun violence and the hope that one day, enough will be enough.” Speaking to Reuters later, she said, “The one thing I want people to know is that my message was out of concern for the kids.”
Many educators did celebrate Kirk’s death, including a Virginia teacher who wrote, “I hope he suffered through all of it,” and a Texas middle school intern who said the shooting “made me giggle.” Screenshots of both posts were circulated by right-wing influencers. Reuters could not locate the original posts, which may have been deleted or made private. The Virginia teacher was suspended and the Texas intern was fired. Neither could be reached for comment.
While schools that suspended or fired educators cited disruptions to the learning environment, some private employers pointed to a violation of company values or safety concerns as the basis for terminations. Corporations caught up in the backlash gave a variety of explanations: Delta Air Lines CEO Ed Bastian said in a statement some employees’ comments were in “stark contrast” to the company’s values and violated its social media policy, while a United Airlines statement said the company had “zero tolerance for politically motivated violence or any attempt to justify it.”
At least a dozen Kirk critics who took pains to condemn the shooting also found themselves out of jobs or suspended, sometimes after Republican lawmakers got involved.
In the wake of Kirk’s death, Joshua Bregy, a climate scientist at Clemson University in South Carolina, shared another user’s Facebook post that read, in part: “No one should be gunned down — not a school child, not an influencer, not a politician — no one. But am I going to allow people to make a martyr out of a flawed human being whose rhetoric caused notable damage? Not a chance.”
The Clemson College Republicans reposted part of his message, labeling him “ANOTHER leftist professor” and calling for his termination. The post was amplified by right-wing influencers and Republican state lawmakers who threatened to defund the public university unless Bregy was fired.
Clemson initially pledged in a September 12 statement to “stand firmly on the principles of the U.S. Constitution, including the protection of free speech.”
The next day, Trump himself reposted a state lawmaker’s call to “Defund Clemson.” On September 16, after South Carolina’s House speaker and Senate president sent a letter to Clemson’s trustees demanding they “take immediate and appropriate action,” the school fired Bregy. Bregy’s Facebook post was “blatantly unprofessional” and “seriously prejudicial to the university,” Clemson said in a letter informing Bregy he had been dismissed.
Bregy is suing Clemson in a South Carolina federal court in a bid to be reinstated. His lawyer, Allen Chaney, said the academic would have kept his job “but for the really aggressive, coercive tactics of elected officials in South Carolina.”
Clemson, State House Speaker Murrell Smith and Senate President Thomas Alexander did not respond to requests for comment. Clemson has yet to file a response to Bregy’s suit.
In at least six other cases, Republican officials publicly threatened to deprive universities and schools of taxpayer funds unless specific critics of Kirk were fired.
Chaney, who serves as legal director of the South Carolina chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union, said the threats to defund Clemson and others crossed a constitutional line. “The government can’t police speech by pressuring third parties,” he said. Last year, the Supreme Court unanimously held that government officials cannot use their authority to “attempt to coerce” private parties into punishing or suppressing speech they dislike.
The threats to defund schools that resist firing Kirk’s critics were “stunning,” said Paul McGreal, a constitutional law professor at Creighton University Law School in Nebraska. “Government officials are threatening speakers with punishment because they disagree with what they’re saying. These are core First Amendment protections that they’re violating.”
Kirk praised as Christ’s ‘13th disciple’
Since Kirk’s assassination, many Republicans have cast him as a saintly champion of free expression. Evangelical figures have likened him to Saint Stephen, revered as Christianity’s first martyr. One Republican lawmaker told Congress “he’d have been the 13th disciple” had he lived in Biblical times. Trump compared Kirk to the ancient Greek philosopher Socrates, slain President Abraham Lincoln and assassinated civil rights icon Martin Luther King Jr. when posthumously awarding him the Presidential Medal of Freedom.
Kirk’s legacy is complicated, however. He gained fame for debating college students as part of his work with Turning Point. Kirk also advocated criminalizing expression – such as pornography – that clashed with his Christian views. When Black football players started kneeling during the national anthem in protest at police brutality, he backed Trump’s call to strip the National Football League of taxpayer subsidies. The White House later said Trump was making a statement, not a proposal.
Kirk repeatedly denigrated minorities, calling transgender people an “abomination,” warning of “prowling Blacks” in cities, accusing wealthy Jews of stoking “hatred against Whites,” and declaring Islam incompatible with Western civilization. He also dismissed Pope Francis as a Marxist.
Some of those who spoke out against Kirk after his death said they were disturbed by the hagiography.
“I just felt compelled to remind people who he was and what he stood for,” Kimberly Hunt, a human resources worker in Arizona, said in an interview. She had posted a video captioned, “Save your tears for his victims, not him.”
In the video, Hunt cited Kirk’s record of using derogatory language about transgender people and Muslims, before adding that his children “are better off without him.” Hunt was fired soon after. Her employer, an Arizona construction firm, did not respond to requests for comment.
Hunt told Reuters she understood her words sounded harsh but stood by them. She said they reflected Kirk’s stance in a debate last year that if he had a 10-year-old daughter who was impregnated through rape, “the baby would be delivered.”
The retaliation has silenced many voices. Scores of people who posted anti-Kirk comments have since scrubbed or locked their accounts, Reuters found. Others said in interviews that they are pushing back.
Hunt said she has raised more than $88,000 from a GoFundMe campaign titled, “Doxxed, Fired, but Not Silenced.” She said she wants to use the money to further her education, become a content creator, and keep calling out people like Kirk.
“It’s definitely just emboldened me,” she said.
At least 19 lawsuits have been filed against employers who punished Kirk critics, state and federal court records show. At least two plaintiffs have succeeded, including an academic in South Dakota who got his teaching job back.
Karen Leader, an associate professor at Florida Atlantic University, took to social media after Kirk’s death to protest a narrative that he “was a shining inspiration to youth and a noncontroversial figure who just wanted to have open and civil dialog,” she said. “Anyone who’s in higher education knows that it’s not that simple.”
She noted that Turning Point rose to prominence through its Professor Watchlist, a site that encouraged students to report faculty for allegedly holding “radical left” views or being a “terror supporter.”
Kirk had described the Watchlist as an awareness tool, not a blacklist. Those on it have said in interviews, social media posts and public forums that it fostered harassment and intimidation. In 2023, a Turning Point reporter was accused of assaulting an Arizona professor who was on the watchlist after confronting him on camera about his sexuality and shoving him to the ground. The reporter admitted to harassment, assault and disorderly conduct and was ordered to complete a diversion program. A Turning Point cameraman admitted to harassment in the case.
On September 10, Leader began posting Kirk’s past statements on X. She said she made a mistake by incorrectly accusing Kirk of having uttered an ethnic slur and then deleted it. The rest of her posts she said she stands behind, including one highlighting Kirk’s claim that Black Americans were “better” during Jim Crow.
“None of it was me encouraging violence,” Leader said. “I was sharing evidence.”
Jordan Chamberlain, a former staffer of Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, shared screenshots of several of Leader’s posts and tagged her university, asking if it approved of the content. Libs of TikTok shared Leader’s faculty headshot. The university’s president announced she had been put on administrative leave. Her address and phone number appeared online, and menacing messages followed.
In one voicemail reviewed by Reuters, the caller said: “We’re coming to get you. Karen Leader, we know where you work. We’re gonna come to your home as soon as we have your location.” Leader said she has rarely left her apartment since.
She reported the threats to Boca Raton police, which referred the case to campus officers, according to a police report. Florida Atlantic University police said their report could not be released because of an active criminal investigation.
Florida Atlantic University confirmed Leader was one of three academics who were on leave pending investigations. It declined further comment. Chamberlain also didn’t return an email seeking comment.
“Whether my career is over or not, I don’t know,” Leader said. “But my life has changed.”
Pennsylvania State Police say three people are dead after a vehicle fled from a traffic stop and crashed in Chester County early Friday.
Around 1:20 a.m., state police troopers saw the silver Toyota sedan violate traffic laws near East Third Street and Garner Drive in New Garden Township, according to police.
When officers tried to conduct a traffic stop, “the vehicle failed to stop and a pursuit ensued,” police said.
“Soon after the pursuit ensued, the fleeing vehicle crashed, and the three occupants of the fleeing vehicle are deceased,” state police said in a news release.
No police officers were injured. State police were working to identify the deceased and notify their families.
Early-morning TV news reports showed a mangled car next to a tree and a fence. The crash happened in Avondale on Gap Newport Pike between Sharp Road and Limestone Road, according to news reports.
President Donald Trump may no longer be a fan of Shane Gillis after listening to the comedian’s most-recent podcast.
Gillis, a Mechanicsburg, Pa., native, joked about the possibility 79-year-old Trump is beginning to show signs of mental decline on the most-recent episode of Matt and Shane’s Secret Podcast, which he co-hosts with fellow comedian Matt McCuster.
While Gillis expressed some sympathy for Lucey, he also joked about whether she deserved to be corrected by Trump and how awkward the plane flight must have been following the exchange.
“Think if you were next to her and hated her,” Gillis said.
Watch (caution: strong language):
Lucey, who has not spoken publicly about the matter, spent 12 years as a reporter at the Philadelphia Daily News covering everything from police corruption to local news. She left in 2012 and spent time reporting for the Associated Press and the Wall Street Journal before joining Bloomberg in March.
“Our White House journalists perform a vital public service, asking questions without fear or favor,” a Bloomberg News spokesperson told the Guardian. “We remain focused on reporting issues of public interest fairly and accurately.”
White House press secretary Karoline Leavitt defended Trump’s insult of Lucey, telling reporters Thursday the president “calls out fake news when he sees it and gets frustrated with reporters who spread false information.”
There’s no indication Lucey was spreading false information while asking Trump about the Epstein files.
After being fired by Saturday Night Live in 2019, Gillis has risen to fame in part thanks to his unflattering yet sympathetic portrayal of Trump. Gillis has amassed a huge audience of MAGA fans, including the president himself.
Gillis, an Eagles fan, met with Trump at the Super Bowl in New Orleans alongside country music star Zach Bryan.
At the Super Bowl, Trump meets comedian Shane Gillis and country star Zach Bryan. Both are big Eagles fans. pic.twitter.com/tHlKH03zpq
“Well, he’s a very good … I mean, on our side, right?” Trump later said in an interview with the Spector editor Ben Domenech, with the president adding he was a fan of Gillis and likes “everybody that’s on my side.”
Gillis recalled the meeting during an episode of his podcast, describing the room as “intense” thanks to the heavy presence of Secret Service agents.
“I finally had the moment — quick handshake,” Gillis said, though adding that Trump “has no idea who I am.”
Joe Rogan and Theo Von not-so-quietly cooling their support of Trump
Joe Rogan at President Donald Trump’s inauguration in January.
Gillis is just the latest comedian within the so-called “manosphere” to begin to peel back their support of Trump.
Joe Rogan, host of the popular The Joe Rogan Experience podcast, mocked Trump over his handling of the Epstein files.
“I heard ‘there’s no files,’ I heard ‘it’s a hoax,’ ” Rogan said on the most-recent episode of his podcast. “And then all of a sudden, he’s going to release the files. Well, I thought there was not files.”
Rogan famously endorsed and interviewed Trump ahead of the 2024 election, with the episode reportedly drawing over 40 million listeners. He also attended Trump’s inauguration but recently has been criticizing the president over everything from U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement raids and mass deportations to his continued lies about the 2020 election.
“I feel like if you say that, you’ve got to have some, like, really good evidence that you could give out,” Rogan said on his podcast earlier this month about the 2020 election. “Either you don’t have any evidence that they stole the election, or you have evidence and you’re not telling me. Why would you not tell me? Why would you not tell me?”
Theo Von at Trump’s inauguration.
Theo Von, host of the This Past Weekend podcast, also interviewed Trump and attended his inauguration, but called out his administration after the Department of Homeland Security took a joke out-of-context and used it in a pro-deportation social media video that was later deleted.
“My father immigrated here from Nicaragua. One of my prized possessions is I have his immigration papers from when he came here. I have them in a frame,” Von said on his podcast last month.
The package was mailed from New Jersey, which should have been the first clue.
Inside was a cigar box rigged to resemble a bomb, and it was delivered on the afternoon of Nov. 21, 1960, to the office of TV host Dick Clark.
Clark, a week away from his 31st birthday, was the star of the nationally televised ABC program American Bandstand, which was filmed at WFIL-TV studios at 46th and Market Streets. He was filming his afternoon program when the parcel arrived shortly after 3 p.m.
His secretary received the package, and as she started to untie the brown-paper wrapping, the cigar box became visible. One side of the box had been removed, and she spotted a net of wires and a five-inch piece of copper tubing.
Police quickly arrived and inspected the device, and took it to their headquarters for further evaluation. And while it looked like a crudely constructed explosive device, police and postal leaders told The Inquirer that it was missing two key components: powder and a fuse.
There were no actual explosives in the box, and the device couldn’t have set any off.
It contained what at first appeared to be a blasting cap, but after closer examination was identified as a piece of tree bark.
“The package was obviously the work of a crank,” the officials told The Inquirer.
Philly Police, the U.S. Postal Service, and the FBI took part in the investigation, but no culprit was ever publicly identified.
TV staffers were still jumpy a few weeks later when an unmarked gift package that resembled the faux bomb arrived at Clark’s office.
Responding police, taking no chances, carried it across the street and into the middle of Drexel University’s athletic field.
When they finally got the courage to open it, out popped a shaggy, stuffed dog.
All packages from then on, The Inquirer quipped, should carry a notation:
Think you know your news? There’s only one way to find out. Welcome back to our weekly News Quiz — a quick way to see if your reading habits are sinking in and to put your local news knowledge to the test.
Question 1 of 10
The Michelin awards are officially in Philadelphia. The first batch of honors was marked with a ceremony Tuesday. How many Philly-based restaurants received one star?
CorrectIncorrect. XX% of other readers got this question right.
Three Philly restaurants received one Michelin star: Her Place Supper Club, Friday Saturday Sunday, and Provenance.
Question 2 of 10
Clyde Peeling, 83, of Allentown, is regarded as the reptile king. He was actually bitten by a rattlesnake while serving with this military branch:
CorrectIncorrect. XX% of other readers got this question right.
Peeling’s first bite occurred when he was serving with the Air Force. But it wouldn’t be his last. Today, his space, Reptiland, is home to a slew of Komodo dragons, poisonous Gila monsters, anacondas, and more.
Subscribe to The Philadelphia Inquirer
Our reporting is directly supported by reader subscriptions. If you want more journalism like this story, please subscribe today.
President Donald Trump lashed out at Bloomberg reporter Catherine Lucey on Air Force One last week, telling her, “quiet piggy” when she asked him about the Jeffrey Epstein case. Years before Lucey was at Bloomberg, she was a reporter in Philadelphia. Where did she work?
CorrectIncorrect. XX% of other readers got this question right.
Before her time in D.C., Lucey was a respected reporter in Philadelphia, spending 12 years at the Philadelphia Daily News covering everything from police corruption to local news — but her sweet spot was politics. Her portfolio included coverage of then-Mayor Michael Nutter’s administration and the city’s changing power dynamics.
Question 4 of 10
Sixers player Tyrese Maxey made a cameo as a dog handler at the National Dog Show hosted outside Philadelphia. The dog lover has three dogs of his own, Apollo: a Cane Corso, and Aries and Arrow who are both this breed:
CorrectIncorrect. XX% of other readers got this question right.
Maxey got Aries and Arrow, both Bernedoodles, during the summer. He has been working on his dog training skills for more than a year.
Question 5 of 10
This museum, managed by the College of Physicians, will undergo a $27 million renovation beginning next year:
CorrectIncorrect. XX% of other readers got this question right.
The first phase of renovations at the Mütter Museum will include larger galleries, building upgrades, better signage, and expanded exhibition space. Construction will begin in early 2026.
story continues after advertisement
Question 6 of 10
In Craig LaBan’s review of Borromini, Stephen Starr’s Italian destination in Rittenhouse Square, there was only one dish the food critic said he orders every single visit.
CorrectIncorrect. XX% of other readers got this question right.
LaBan noted that he found the restaurant’s signature 100-layer lasagna to be underwhelming. But he insists on ordering the focaccia di Recco, featuring a hot crispy flatbread paired with wafer-thin rounds of tangy stracchino cheese, every time. The bread is a recipe from consulting chef, Nancy Silverton, the L.A. star with whom Starr runs Osteria Mozza in D.C.
Question 7 of 10
Task, the HBO show set in Delco, has been renewed for a second season. Season one starred Tom Pelphrey and this actor:
CorrectIncorrect. XX% of other readers got this question right.
The first season of Task followed an FBI task force led by Tom Brandis (Mark Ruffalo) — a former priest and grieving widower — as they tracked down thieves robbing drug houses in the Philly suburbs.
Question 8 of 10
Boathouse Row could be seen during the Eagles’ Sunday Night Football broadcast, in special hues to promote this movie:
CorrectIncorrect. XX% of other readers got this question right.
Boathouse Row went green and pink to promote Wicked: For Good as part of NBC's large marketing campaign for the film. It marks the historic strip’s first movie promotion.
Question 9 of 10
Artist Rose Luardo has previously caught locals’ attention with outdoor art installations including “Boob Garden” and “Rave Coffin.” What’s her latest display titled?
CorrectIncorrect. XX% of other readers got this question right.
Located at the intersection of Washington Avenue, Passyunk Avenue, and Eighth Street, “Crab Couch” — which is exactly what it sounds like — is the latest work Luardo set up at what she calls Capt. Jesse G’s Crab Shack Gallery. That’s because the shuttered business’ sign inexplicably remains lording over the lot on a freestanding pole, even though the building was long-ago demolished.
Question 10 of 10
The Franklin Institute is returning its lunar module, which was on display outside for 49 years, back to Smithsonian’s National Air and Space Museum in D.C. What is next for the module?
CorrectIncorrect. XX% of other readers got this question right.
There are currently no plans for it to be displayed at the National Air and Space Museum, a Smithsonian spokesperson told The Inquirer.
Your Results
You have skipped .
You scored XX out of 10.
The average reader scored XX out of 10
Seems like you’ve been skimming more than reading there, buddy. There’s always next week.
You’ve read some articles (or made some educated guesses) but we wouldn’t come to you first for our local news recaps. Better luck next week!
Do you work here? You’re a local news stan with the latest updates on Philly happenings. Your friends definitely ask you for summaries on what’s going on and it shows.
Two new studies on New Jersey’s rising sea levels predict potentially serious environmental outcomes in the Garden State, from the flooding of numerous toxic sites to significant erosion.
Multiple coasts, spanning from the Delaware Bay to the Hudson River, increase New Jersey’s vulnerability to sea-level rise.
When combined with the state’s abundance of big industry, that means New Jersey has the nation’s second-highest exposure to potential flooding at industrial, toxic, and sewage treatment sites, according to a new peer-reviewed study led by Climate Central, a nonprofit run by scientists.
Meanwhile, a separate new study by RutgersUniversity says that the state faces a sea-level rise nearly three times faster than the global average over the coming decades.
Taken together, that means New Jersey faces more rising waters rimmed by chemical plants, Superfund sites, fossil fuel ports, and wastewater treatment plants.
“Flooding from sea level rise is dangerous on its own — but when facilities with hazardous materials are in the path of those floodwaters, the danger multiplies,” Lara Cushing, an associate professor at UCLAwho assisted with the Climate Central study, said in a statement.
Flooding near hazardous facilities
The Climate Central paper, published Thursday in the journal Nature Communications, analyzed and mapped 47,646 hazardous facilities along America’s coastlines. Researchers from UCLA, Nanjing University, and UC Berkeley assisted.
The researchers project that 3,740 facilities in the United States are at risk of a 100-year coastal flood within the next 25 years under a moderate greenhouse gas emissions scenario for sea-level rise (a 100-year flood has a 1% annual chance of occurring). And 5,138 facilities will be at risk by 2100.
Scientists usually consider three scenarios of greenhouse gas emissions when forecasting sea-level rise. A low-emissions scenario means basically no more rise in greenhouse gases. In an intermediate, or moderate, scenario, emissions rise slowly until 2050 and then decline. Under a high-emissions scenario, emissions rise through 2100. Each has an associated impact, with higher emissions resulting in higher sea levels.
More facilities would be flooded if emissions of greenhouse gases, which help trap heat in the atmosphere, go unchecked and continue to climb, the authors found.
Seven states — Louisiana, Florida, New Jersey, Texas, California, New York, and Massachusetts — account for nearly 80% of projected sites at risk of flooding by 2100.
Screen capture of a map from Climate Central’s coastal risk screening tool shows toxic facilities, such as industrial sites and sewage treatment plants, at risk of a 100 year flood by 2050.
New Jersey’s industrial legacy
According to Climate Central,New Jersey has 420 at-risk facilities that will be exposed to flooding by 2050, with the number rising to 492 facilities by 2100. The state is second only to Louisiana, which will have 1,632 facilities at risk by 2050.
Middlesex, Bergen, and Essex Counties have the most exposure, given their proximity to densely populated areas near major ports such as Newark and New York.
However, industrial facilities in Burlington, Camden, and Gloucester Counties also have exposure to flooding, some potentially multiple times, given their positions along the Delaware River. So, too, do facilities in Philadelphia.
Chemical and petroleum giants such as ExxonMobil, DuPont, and Chemours have facilities in Gloucester County just off the river, for example. Avient, a maker of specialized polymers, and Riverside Metals have facilities along the river in Burlington County.
InPhiladelphia, the Clearview Landfill Superfund site off Darby Creek, Ashland Chemical, and the city’s Southwest wastewater treatment plantare at risk of flooding in a major storm.
Indeed, the Delaware River is lined with wastewater treatment plants. Some, such as those in Philadelphia and Camden County, have older systems that together overflow millions of gallons of raw, diluted sewage into the river during storms, though the biggest proportion is from Philly.
Some of the industrial, wastewater treatment, and other facilities are at risk of 12 or more floods annually in decades to come as sea levels rise, according to the Climate Central study.
The authors found that certain communities are more likely to live near at-risk sites, such as those with a higher proportion of renters, households living in poverty, residents who identify as Hispanic, linguistically isolated households, households without vehicles, seniors, and nonvoters.
“This analysis makes it clear that these projected dangers are falling disproportionately on poorer communities,” Cushing said, noting that the people in thesecommunities often lack the resources to prepare for, or recover from, flooding.
Rising seas
Separately, a technical advisory panel at the New Jersey Climate Change Resource Center at Rutgers released a report last week focused on rising seas and coastal storms.
The report, commissioned by the New Jersey Department of Environmental Protection, found that under a moderate rise in emissions:
The state is likely to see a sea-level rise between 2.2 and 3.8 feet by 2100.
Between 2005 and 2020, sea level at tide gauges rose by about 4 inches. That ranged from around 3.7 inches at Atlantic City to around 4.4 inches at Cape May.
In the near term, New Jersey is likely to experience between 0.9 and 1.7 feet (11 and 20 inches) of sea-level rise by 2050.
In this file photo, Haldy Gifford talks about the dead grass along the Grassy Sound, a roughly 120-acre spit of marshland off the back bay in Wildwood in Middle Township. Grassy Sound is beset by erosion.
“New Jersey’s shorelines have experienced and will continue to experience significant erosion driven by sea level rise and storms,” a summary of the report states. “While current levels of intervention have successfully reduced erosion rates in some places, these efforts may become economically unsustainable in the future, particularly for lower-income communities.”
Further, wetlands, which serve to protect wildlife habitats and the coastline from storm surges, will be greatly impacted.
“Even under a low emissions scenario, future projected rates of sea-level rise in coastal New Jersey may exceed the pace at which many coastal wetlands are able to adapt.”
Robert Kopp, a climate scientist and distinguished professor in Rutgers’ Department of Earth and Planetary Sciences, said in a statement that the world is on track to experience about 2.7 degrees Celsius of atmospheric warming by 2100 because of human-caused climate change.
Kopp cautioned that could increase given the change in U.S. climate policies.
Added Janine Barr, a Rutgers senior research specialist: “Sea-level rise is happening now in New Jersey and will continue into the future.”
As the pink of twilight peeked through the November clouds, Temple University’s Diamond Marching Band, instruments and flags in tote, practiced on the campus’ Geasey Field.
They ran through selections by Taylor Swift and from the movie KPop Demon Hunters while athletic bands director Matthew Brunner studied their sound and formation from a scissor lift 25 feet in the air.
“Notes should be long,” Brunner called out over a microphone after one selection. “Don’t try to play them too short.”
There were few spectators that afternoon. But that’s about to change in a big way.
The 200-member band is one of only 11 that have been selected to participate in the Macy’s Thanksgiving Day Parade in New York City. It’s a first for Temple, which will be the only band from Pennsylvania or New Jersey in this year’s parade. More than 30 million people likely will be watching from home and 3.5 million in person, if prior numbers are any indication.
Members of the Temple University Marching Band prepare to practice. The band will perform in the Macy’s Thanksgiving Day Parade this year.
That’s a lot of exposure for the Cherry and White, which could be a boost for recruitment and fundraising.
“I can scarcely think of a better way to bring visibility to Temple,” said John Fry, Temple’s president.
And that visibility could lead to more people visiting Temple’s website and seeing what the university has to offer, he said.
“It’s going to be incredible for the university,” said Brunner, who initially announced Temple’s band had been selected for the parade in August 2024. “There’s no television event, other than the Super Bowl, that is bigger.”
The excitement is palpable among students, some of whose families plan to attend the parade.
“It’s a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity,” said Erin Flanagan, 21, who grew up watching the parade with her family and notes she wanted to march in it since she was 6. “I mean, the Macy’s parade is iconic.”
Temple University alto saxophone player Erin Flanagan rehearses with the marching band.
The music education major from Manasquan, N.J., who is a senior, said it likely will be her last performance with the band, and she could not have scripted it better.
“I get to go to this awesome performance and just show everybody what Temple stands for,” said Flanagan, an alto saxophone section leader.
It’s the 99th anniversary of the 2.5-mile parade, which kicks off about 8:30 a.m. on Thanksgiving Day on NBC and Peacock, hosted by Savannah Guthrie, Hoda Kotb, and Al Roker.
Temple University tuba player Lorali Minde plays the tuba in the marching band.
Lorali Minde, 18, a freshman from Levittown, will be marching while playing the tuba, a 36-pound instrument.
“You kind of get used to it,” she said. “It’s like carrying a really heavy purse.”
Brunner, who has led the marching band for 18 years, said he had applied to be in the parade several times before. It’s a competitive process, with more than 100 applicants vying for a spot. He had to submit video of a performance — he sent the 10-minute show the band did off the Barbie movie soundtrack — pictures of the band in uniform, reasons that Temple deserved a shot, and the band’s resume and biography.
Matthew Brunner, athletic bands director, leads a practice in 2018.
When his wife saw the Barbie show, Brunner said, she texted him: “That’s the show you need to send to Macy’s.”
It proved a winner.
“They loved the fact that the music we play is current,” he said.
The honor comes at a special time for the band, which is celebrating its 100th anniversary. Brunner played that fact up in the application, too.
Under Brunner, the band has grown and has been hitting high marks. Over the years, the school has been recognized as one of the top collegiate marching bands in the nation by USA Today and Rolling Stone, appeared on Good Morning America, The Tonight Show Starring Jimmy Fallon, and an episode of Madam Secretary, and was featured in two Hollywood movies, The Wolf of Wall Street, starring Leonardo DiCaprio, and the remake of Annie. Some of its performances have received millions of views on YouTube, including a 2018 performance of “Idol” by the K-pop group BTS, which currently has more than five million views on Ricky Swalm’s YouTube channel.
The band includes a color guard, a baton twirler, brass and woodwind instruments, a drum line, and a dance team. The group typically practices three times a week for two hours at a time.
Temple University Marching Band tuba players practice.
“The band is infectious,” Brunner said. “When you see them perform, you can’t help but smile.”
Students have been eying the parade opportunity for a while.
When Flanagan was a sophomore, she asked Brunner point-blank: “When are we doing the Macy’s parade?”
Recently, she and her roommates, also band members, have been counting down the days on a whiteboard.
Brunner declined to say exactly what the band will perform on Thanksgiving, but promised a mix of holiday, audience participation, and Temple songs.
“We’re hoping for no wind,” he said.
Temple University Marching Band Color Guard Captain Abigail Rosen practices with her flag.
Abigail Rosen, color guard captain, and her cocaptain are planning an “epic toss” of their flags over other band members, and wind could hinder it, he explained.
“It’s an exchange toss,” said Rosen, 20, a junior advertising major from Abington. “So I toss my flag to Dana [Samuelson] and she tosses her flag to me, and we catch each other’s flags.”
Bands selected received $10,000 from the retailer, which Temple officials said helped them get started on fundraising to pay for the trip.
The band will be heading to New York on Tuesday for an alumni event, then a performance on the Today show Wednesday. Band members will be up in the wee hours of the morning Thursday for a rehearsal, and after the parade, they will be treated by the school to a Thanksgiving dinner cruise along the Hudson River.
Andrew Malick, 20, a music education major from Carlisle, Pa., who plays the tuba, can’t wait.
“It will be cool to say you’ve done it for the rest of your life,” he said.
Jeremiah Murrell, a freshman trumpet player from Savannah, GA, rehearses with the Temple University Marching Band Thursday, Nov. 13, 2025.
Across Philadelphia, low- and moderate-income households rely on federal subsidies that reduce the cost of their rent.
Federal housing programs directly subsidize at least 476 properties,totaling about 34,350 rental units. But the city is at risk of losing more than one in five of these affordable housing units during the next decade, according to an analysis by the Housing Initiative at Penn published Thursday.
Between 2026 and 2036, federal contracts or mandates that cap the rents at these properties can expire.
Owners candecide whether to renew contracts or let them end and then chargehigher market-rate rents orsell their properties in potentially lucrative deals as property values in the city continue to rise.
A property owner’s decision in 2021 not to renew a subsidy contract at the University City Townhomes in West Philadelphia is a recent high-profile example of what’s at stake. The site had grown much more valuable since the subsidized townhomes were built four decades earlier, and the owner decided to sell the property, displacing 69 households.
“Philadelphia has long relied on a large number of federally subsidized properties to provide affordable housing options that are protected from market forces,” researchers at the Housing Initiative at Penn wrote.
Also helpful, researchers noted, will be the public database of subsidized housing properties and their subsidy expiration dates that the city is creating, as directed by legislation City Council passed in 2023. City officials said they hope to launch the database early next year.
Here are some takeaways from Penn researchers’ analysis of subsidized properties in Philadelphia.
These properties are concentrated in certain areas
Subsidized properties, including those at risk of having their subsidies expire, operate in neighborhoods across the city.
But they are most concentrated in three City Council districts: the Third in West Philadelphia, the Fifth in North Philadelphia, and the Eighth, which includes the area around Germantown and Mount Airy.
The report’s total count of federally subsidized properties does not include those added in the last two to three years, due to limitations of the data.
Subsidies face several risk factors
Researchers found that where properties are located influences the odds of an owner ending participation in a subsidy program and if they do, how much rents potentially could increase.
Thirty-eight of the 136 Philadelphia properties whose subsidies will be up for renewal during the next decade are in areas where rents, household incomes, and home values have increased more than in the city as a whole.
In census tracts that have properties with expiring subsidies, home values increased by 28% in the last decade, compared to 21% citywide.
In areas with strong housing markets, property owners have more incentive to end subsidy contracts and charge market-rate rents.
For-profit property owners are less likely than nonprofit owners to renew subsidy contracts. And about six in 10 properties with expiring subsidies are owned by for-profit owners.
Researchers also noted that any policy change by President Donald Trump’s administration that reduces federal funding for subsidy programs would make properties less affordable for tenants.
These are the most common subsidies
The country’s largest source of funding for new and renovated subsidized rental housing is the Low-Income Housing Tax Credit program. It’s also the most common subsidy source in Philadelphia.
These properties have to keep rents affordable for 30 to 40 years after they are built.
Of the properties that have subsidies that expire within the next 10 years, 57% use Low-Income Housing Tax Credit subsidies, either alone or in combination with other programs.
In a 2024 report, Fannie Mae said the credit was “one of the most successful” programs that support affordable housing for “some of the most vulnerable renters in the country.”
Fannie Mae found that in early 2024, the average asking rent for Low-Income Housing Tax Credit properties in the Philadelphia metropolitan area was about half the average asking rent for a market-rate property.
For Philadelphia properties, the next largest source of federal housing subsidies is the Section 8 program that ties subsidies to units, not households.
This program, either alone or in combination with other programs, covers 27% of the city’s subsidized properties that have agreements that expire during the next decade.
Property owners can choose whether to renew these contracts when they end, which is usually after five to 20 years. Current contracts are all renewals of agreements that date back to before 1983, when Congress ended the program.
A 20-year-old woman and a 19-year-old man who were critically wounded in a shooting Thursday night were dropped off by a private vehicle at Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia, police said.
The shooting “likely” happened on the 2100 block of South Norwood Street in South Philadelphia, where 14 spent shell casings were found, said Chief Inspector Scott Small.
However, the victims have been unable to speak and no witnesses had yet been located to say for certain where the two people were shot, Small said.
Shortly before 8:30 p.m., police responded to a report of gunshots in the area of 21st and Jackson Streets and found the shooting scene nearby on the 2100 block of South Norwood Street, Small said.
Police investigating shooting evidence on the 2100 block of South Norwood Street in Philadelphia on Thursday.
A short time later, police were notified that two shooting victims were taken by private vehicle to Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia, Small said. The vehicle did not remain at the hospital.
There were no other shooting incidents reported to police around the time the victims were dropped off at the hospital, Small said.
Police also did not find blood evidence on Norwood Street, adding to uncertainty about what happened, Small said.
Police were checking to see if any security cameras recorded video in the area, Small said.
